Hercules
Posts: 4037
Registered: 10/13/2004
Rank: Platinum Critic
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 11/8/2007 10:50:51 PM
So I have a friend on campus (who shall remain nameless  ) who happens to be a coaster enthusiast. We met last year and talk from time to time. Well, I'm sure you know that there are people that count such things are powered coasters as credits, or relocated coasters as new credits. Those are fine and I have no problem with those things. However, my friend kind of comically crosses a line. He claims that coasters that get newly designed trains should be considered new credits because the trains provide a new riding experience for the ride. I can agree that new trains can potentially change a ride experience greatly. The example that I will give is the now defunct Batman and Robin: The Chiller. When Chiller changed over from OTSR's to ratcheting lapbar restraints my friend thinks that the change warrented the ride being considered 2 new credits (two tracks, two credits, a history of 4 total credits). I can say that the change in restraints made the trains much more comfortable to be in with no headbanging and the like, and it did greatly change the riding experience. However, I think it is an absolute joke that it would be considered new credits. To each their own when it comes to calculating their coaster count, but give me a break! Does anyone else agree that new trains or restraints makes a coaster a new credit?
On a little side note - my friend can't wait for Morey's Piers to change Great Nor'Easter over to the restraints that they tested a few weeks ago because that would be a new credit for him.
On another side note - My friend considers The Chiller to have historically be 6 distinct credits due to the change in restraints and then the removal of the rolls. He is quite mad that he was only able to get 5 out of the 6 credits because on each of his visits this year the Batman side of Chiller was closed.
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"I could never design another ride like Hercules." - Curtis Summers
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mrceagle
Posts: 13804
Registered: 6/9/2001
Rank: TPC News Minister
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11/9/2007 12:19:20 AM
I have never counted it like that. I don't know any one that dose. It Shouldn't be considered a new credit. It's still the same coaster. i guess in these terms he Could get an extra credit for X2.
Now a reprofiling is a deferent question. That cam dramatically change the coaster and after wards it really isn't the same coaster that was there before.
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coaster05
Posts: 6207
Registered: 2/29/2004
Rank: Platinum Critic
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11/9/2007 6:41:34 AM
I am very liberal on counting credits, but no way would a change in trains count. But like you sid whatever they want to count is fine it is not like we get paid for our coaster count.
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Animan1
Posts: 5394
Registered: 5/14/2003
Rank: Platinum Critic
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11/9/2007 8:01:18 AM
I would not count a train change as a new credit either. My rating or review of the coaster might change, but I wouldn't consider it to be a whole new credit.
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Canobie Coaster
Posts: 2694
Registered: 7/26/2005
Rank: Platinum Critic
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11/11/2007 7:46:07 PM
I too agree that a new train isn't worth another credit.
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Timberman
Posts: 845
Registered: 9/21/2004
Rank: Gold Critic
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11/11/2007 11:11:10 PM
I agree that a new restraint system or train can vastly change a ride for better or for worse, but the idea that it should count as new credit is indeed a joke. Your friend sounds like he is well on his way to becoming a lawyer.
Message updated 11/11/2007 11:11:40 PM by Timberman
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ginzo
Posts: 564
Registered: 7/16/2006
Rank: Gold Critic
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11/12/2007 3:16:11 PM
Although I never got to ride it, I'd count the Chiller as two credits. It was two completely separate rides that just happened to be located next to one another, and shared some supports.
Merely changing trains, however, does not indicate a new credit. Only extreme modifications that alter the entire spirit of the ride would count as a new credit in my book. Morgan's conversion of Steel Phantom to Phantom's Revenge is a great example of such a modification that would justify a new credit. They converted a multi looper to a hyper coaster. That's like a whole new ride.
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ginzo
Posts: 564
Registered: 7/16/2006
Rank: Gold Critic
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11/12/2007 3:17:33 PM
Although I never got to ride it, I'd count the Chiller as two credits. It was two completely separate rides that just happened to be located next to one another, and shared some supports.
Merely changing trains, however, does not indicate a new credit. Only extreme modifications that alter the entire spirit of the ride would count as a new credit in my book. Morgan's conversion of Steel Phantom to Phantom's Revenge is a great example of such a modification that would justify a new credit. They converted a multi looper to a hyper coaster. That's like a whole new ride.
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coasterf42
Posts: 626
Registered: 10/3/2005
Rank: Gold Critic
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1/26/2008 2:41:27 PM
Quote:
coaster05 said:
But like you sid whatever they want to count is fine it is not like we get paid for our coaster count. |
Yea, we pay for credits, we don't get paid for them.
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T-Rex
Posts: 959
Registered: 12/1/2007
Rank: Gold Critic
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2/13/2008 8:48:40 PM
I definitely don't count a train change as a different credit, but altering the layout of a previous coaster a lot, like Phantom's Revnege warrants a new credit for me.
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Hercules
Posts: 4037
Registered: 10/13/2004
Rank: Platinum Critic
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2/13/2008 10:41:35 PM
But does a slight alteration of track create a new credit? Because apparently the loss of the trick-track on Boulder Dash makes it a new credit 
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bumprnugit
Posts: 282
Registered: 10/7/2003
Rank: Silver Critic
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8/21/2008 12:43:08 AM
This is perhaps the most asinine question on this board (although I am sure there are worse, I just do not consciously look for them.) This falls into the same question as ".where do you measure your penis from?"..
If you must count (and I know many of you must) purist law states:
1) The structure is the ride. Racing coasters, even if there are different track layouts, are part of the same STRUCTURE, therefore ONE ride.
(Exception: Dueling Dragons - two distinct structures)
2) Reprofiling (or a new train) DOES NOT count. The only exception would be if the reprofile drastically alters the original layout (i.e. Pippen to Thunderbolt, Steel Phantom to Phantoms Revenge.) Ground-up rebuilds do not count either (Lake Compounce Wildcat and Geaugas Big Dipper were essentially taken down and rebuilt board-by-board, but this predates most of you anyway.)
3) Relo'.s only count as one ride, regardless of how many times they are moved. It is the SAME ride.
Carnival rides (Zyklons, Wildcats) and kiddie coasters are up to you. However, if you do count portables, rule #3 must apply. I personally do not count (or even make time) to ride Kiddie coasters or Jeepers fare-type rides. I will not even go out of my way to ride Vekoma Boomerangs since to me they are all the same and I really do not see the point, unless the mood happens to strike me. But that is me.
I do not mean to pontificate, or demean anyones enthusiasm. Quite the opposite. But if you are going to keep track, do it honestly. Look at Shag9004s profile and follow his link to his track record - no dupes or bullshit. I was quite surprised that there are as many countable steel coasters in the lower 48, but again, I personally do not seek them out.
Really though, new train = new credit? If your significant other lost weight, would you count that as a new lay?
PU-LEEZ.
Message updated 8/21/2008 1:18:30 AM by bumprnugit
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coaster05
Posts: 6207
Registered: 2/29/2004
Rank: Platinum Critic
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8/21/2008 12:58:52 PM
And if people count relocated or new trains you care, why?
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bumprnugit
Posts: 282
Registered: 10/7/2003
Rank: Silver Critic
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8/21/2008 4:53:39 PM
Proof that there are no stupid questions, only stupid people.
I don'.t care, but if you are going to take the time to do something, at least be intelligent and honest.
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coaster05
Posts: 6207
Registered: 2/29/2004
Rank: Platinum Critic
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8/21/2008 7:35:32 PM
Counting a relocated coaster is somehow not honest? If I count it arn'.t I being honest by saying I am. Thunderhawk at MIA is so different in feel and scenary then it was at Geauga that it is way more of a credit then the 57 boomerangs doting the planet.
BTW obviously you do care or you wouldn'.t have taken the time to compose that massive list of how a coaster should be counted.
Oh and thanks for the stupid comment that always adds a certain amount of credibilty to any argument.
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bumprnugit
Posts: 282
Registered: 10/7/2003
Rank: Silver Critic
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8/21/2008 8:09:54 PM
Touchy, touchy....I must have struck a nerve.
Actually, I did not compose that list. This was from an ACE publication in the mid 90s (I think it was the first Guide To Ride.) I always thought there was some wiggle room for racing coasters, but not relos or portables. Sorry 05, but in the spirit of a true track record, you count the structure as a credit. Any wooden coaster can ride different day to day. Does a ride in the rain count as a new credit? (shit, I'.ll bet I just gave someone out there an idea...)
The Comet at Great Escape is the same physical structure as when it was at Crystal Beach. I rode it in both locations, and even though the lake view is gone, it actually ran better after the move. But it is still one ride no matter how you dissect it. The last few years it operated at CB, the front half of the train ran backwards (another credit?)
Like I stated earlier, you can make up as many credits as you want. But I prescribe to that ACE opinion from way back when.
Message updated 8/21/2008 8:19:19 PM by bumprnugit
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coaster05
Posts: 6207
Registered: 2/29/2004
Rank: Platinum Critic
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8/21/2008 9:29:22 PM
Well I promise when ACE starts paying people for the most credits, I will edit my list to make sure I don'.t short someone the money they have coming to them. Until then if it is in a different park then it was and I ride it again, its a new credit. If clones are credits then so are these.
Actually my method is this, if its on coastercounter then its a credit.
The best part of this argument is since this site is a ghost town we will probably have the 2 highest post counts this week.
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bumprnugit
Posts: 282
Registered: 10/7/2003
Rank: Silver Critic
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8/21/2008 11:24:41 PM
Ain'.t that the truth. It'.s been fun butting heads, though.
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Why be difficult when with a bit of effort you can be impossible?
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Timberman
Posts: 845
Registered: 9/21/2004
Rank: Gold Critic
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8/24/2008 1:07:54 PM
It'..s funny that ACE is so stingy with roller coaster credits, because its "..Food and Beverage".. bylaws allow a new credit for each different location of Cracker Barrel, and you can get two credits for the same Ponderosa, depending on whether you eat at the buffet or off the menu. Mobile food stands cannot be recounted, however, unless they are moved to a new zip code or add another "..featured item".. that "..changes the fundamental character of the vendor'..s offerings or targets a new segment of the market not served by the vendor'..s existing offerings.".. Since most existing ACERs have been in the club since its inception and have ridden all of the kiddie coasters, reprofiled and relocated rides, and different installations of the same production models (or at least those in the continental United States), the FBBs are generating the most controversy and contentiousness these days.
Message updated 8/24/2008 9:20:17 PM by Timberman
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bumprnugit
Posts: 282
Registered: 10/7/2003
Rank: Silver Critic
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8/24/2008 10:26:53 PM
I didn'.t think there were any Gross-e-rosa'.s still open.
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Timberman
Posts: 845
Registered: 9/21/2004
Rank: Gold Critic
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8/25/2008 9:45:55 PM
Much like Rolling Thunder, Ponderosa is merely a shell of its former self, but more than a few of us remember its heyday fondly.
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ginzo
Posts: 564
Registered: 7/16/2006
Rank: Gold Critic
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8/27/2008 12:30:07 AM
Quote:
bumprnugit said:
1) The structure is the ride. Racing coasters, even if there are different track layouts, are part of the same STRUCTURE, therefore ONE ride.
(Exception: Dueling Dragons - two distinct structures)
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I'.d argue with this one. What about water parks like Typhoon Lagoon that have several slides coming down from the same concrete structure? Are they really only one slide? Or what about Cornball Express and Hoosier Hurricane. They share structure, but are obviously two distinct rides. I don'.t count racing coasters that are perfect mirror images or side-by-side all the way, but if they have different lay outs, like in Lightning Racer, I'.m going to count them as two.
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bumprnugit
Posts: 282
Registered: 10/7/2003
Rank: Silver Critic
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8/30/2008 12:47:53 AM
Ginzo,
In my 8/21 post, I stated I thought that there was some wiggle room for racers, at least those that have two distinct layouts (Lightning Racer, Le Monstre, Rolling Thunder.) But one cannot exist without the other, hence the single structure point.
Hoosier Hurricane & Cornball are 2 distinct rides and structures, as they were not built at they same time nor are they designed to interact as part of the ride experience.
Where I seem to take issue with this whole counting thing is as if a number alone (however an enthusiast, fan or freak feels they need to justify it) elevates one into some aficiando status, or becomes a red badge of courage. I don'.t understand coaster05s comment about getting paid for ride credits, but angling to boost a track record just so one can beat their chest a little harder seems like so much nonsense to me.
But that is me. Don'.t get me wrong. I love rollercoasters, and I do not feel that someone who'.s enthusiasm exceeds mine makes them a freak, nerd or loser. We all have different priorities. I would love to experience alot of the rides that dot this planet, and I have plans on taking my son to Asia and Europe in a few years, but not to ride coasters.
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ginzo
Posts: 564
Registered: 7/16/2006
Rank: Gold Critic
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8/30/2008 2:20:15 AM
Quote:
bumprnugit said:
Ginzo,
In my 8/21 post, I stated I thought that there was some wiggle room for racers, at least those that have two distinct layouts (Lightning Racer, Le Monstre, Rolling Thunder.) But one cannot exist without the other, hence the single structure point. |
The structure argument, like ACE itself, is silly. You can run one side of any non-mobius Racer without the other side just fine. In fact, you could tear track off one side and just run the other side like was never even a racing coaster. Also, saying that ".one cannot exist without the other". admits that there are two distinct entities in question.
I'.m actually quite conservative in my count. I don'.t count powered coasters or water coasters no matter how long the coaster section is. The only racing coaster I count as two is Lightning Racer. And, I don'.t count dark rides with a few random coaster drops, like Blazing Fury at Dollywood.
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coaster05
Posts: 6207
Registered: 2/29/2004
Rank: Platinum Critic
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8/30/2008 8:51:46 AM
My comment about getting paid for credits is this. Whatever someone counts as a credit makes no freaking difference because in the end it is for their personal amusement. Now someday if the pay salaries to the top coaster riders in the world, then we can take issue with what other people count, until then who cares. As far as beating on their chest or whatever it is pretty rare for me to talk coaster count unless someones ask, or I ask them it is rarely brought up.
I'.ll admit I am very liberal in my count. I have powered and several water coasters, and a bunch of kiddies. The kiddie coaster is actually the ones that have made me count anything that has coaster elements, like water coasters. I figure if a python pit or lil leaper is a credit, no questions asked, then how can a Flying Dutchmen at Efteling or the water coasters at Europa not count, when they have way more ".coaster". to them then lil bill'.s giggle coaster at KI.
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Canobie Coaster
Posts: 2694
Registered: 7/26/2005
Rank: Platinum Critic
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8/31/2008 9:52:13 PM
^ Can'.t agree more. This is one of those arguments where neither side is right or wrong. It'.s whatever one wishes to do, just as in the pronunciation of words such as potato.
As for me, I count anything on rcdb listed as a coaster.
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RCGenius
Posts: 1180
Registered: 12/23/2004
Rank: Platinum Critic
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9/1/2008 9:39:48 PM
That does not make any sense. If that was true, then I would have considered Wildcat at Hersheypark an extra coaster credit since the old PTC trains were replaced with Millennium Flyer trains last year. Sure the ride experience might be somewhat different in terms of smoothness & re-rideability, but there is no way that a person should add a refurbished coaster as a new ride altogether. It is still the same layout as it was from the beginning.
Message updated 9/1/2008 9:43:03 PM by RCGenius
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